depending on what is done with such a system tribe will either solve some serious problems or make them worse.

I think you missed my point entirely. thats just one thing you could get out of your user base if you simply started asking them
to do favors for you.

That can start now before any new software is employed.

-------------------


faq.tribe.net/thread/1444...e84d04875ed2
The prometheuspan plan for solving the current troll/alpha dog dominion violence headtrip that is the cancer that keeps civilization stupid.


1. These principles must be utterly pragmatic to employ as rules in a forum, and yet be long term social engineering principles which look at the long term
and gently shape it.
2. These principles must apply in each case the core principle of the balance between severity and mercy. Without enough of both yin or yang,
the universe or any system which is a microfractal impression of the core scalar fractal holomorph will fall out of balance.
A. This includes al kinds of systems, for instance weather which needs a day and night cycle, or social systems which require a certain amount of rules
to enforce civility yet not enough rules to take away anybodies liberties. A large amount of rhetoric of the far right is based on a panic driven
duality schema where they say if things go off in the direction of more rules or to many rules civilization will crumble. the interesting thing is that the
balance point they are pointing at is real. But the current balance is skewed so far off balance to the right that the roof has now become a leg which lands over in
insane retardsville.
3. The core problem of ignorance as it plays out in pack psychology; people fighting over things they know nothing about.
B. Thus the core cure of education. Not unsubbing, public humiliation, or other forms of negative re-enforcement. You must employ pavlovs
core gift to humanity in order to fix this problem.
C. that core gift is this; No amount of merely negative re-enforcement ever makes any situation better, it just makes the criminals better or slyer
or more twisted. You can't beat a dog into submission for long, eventually if you don't also love it its going to decide to finish the nightmare alpha
monster as best as it can.
D. Thus the true core of severity is its balance counterpoint in this and most instances; the system is only as good as the judgements made in bringing
things up... you could call it the parental love side of the force.
On the other hand on te severity or discipline side of the force you have what we might have to call parental discipline. The real truth about applying parental
discipline with a child or an adult human whos behaving as one is that the truth is you can only claim moral authority with a person by demonstrating
to them that you are doing your best to treat them and their situation fairly.

E. Thus 'Discipline" in any successful adventure, even with a child is a love driven account system with very occasional negative energy withdrawals of large
sums. IE, the parent gives to the child positive energy, and more positive energy; the child behaves badly, the adult gives a very short burst of negative
energy which drains the emotional bonding account between parent and child. A parent must see that account in the childs mind and make sense of it
and love a child in a manner that brings them up and opens doors for them to grow into places instead of boxing them in to keep them safe from themselves.

F.The discipline side of a public forum is then the civility created by a successful moderation team who firstly acts to educate and empower
its user base, as well as lead some discussion forums, but who then incidentally deals with the same crowd or mob to settle or resolve disputes
as opportunities for educational demonstrative process.

4. Every person carries with them a shadow or subconscious elements of self which are for most people entirely subliminal.
In public forums common parlance, we can call that aspect of self the inner troll. Everyone has an inner troll, and
the curious thing about having an inner troll is its another part of you you have to take care of.
A. Theres nothing wrong with sparring where both participants have agreed thats what they want to do.
B. It is however assault to soft spar somebody who has not agreed to the new social conditions of soft sparring.
C. Similarly, verbal or written communication can be used for psychological warfare. And thats an entire trip stretch.
Its a place a lot of people get trapped inside of and they never learn to put down their pitchforks.
D. Thanks to those people human civilization is incidentally still a big phat verbal abuse pitchfork society.
Which is barbaric, primitive, stupid, self defeating, self dating, and ultimately which brings evolution to a grinding halt
around the situation of breeding people stupid so that they will vote republican.
And then make good propaganda war foot soldiers in their orwellian society... all the while pretending that any attempt to improve things is some
form of socialist fascism.
E. Given how pack psychology, the dominant social and political and religious paradigms, and egotism as well as what happens given that
reality is based on fractal scalar mirroring, thus;
F. the relationship any person has with society as a whole is some vague mirror of the relationship they have with themselves and vice versa;
G. the relationship any person has with themselves is the relationship most people project at others socially.
H. A person who does this is trapped in the matrix, and curiously you can demonstrate their trappedness very easily using formal conversational logic if
you know what you are doing.

5. Conversational logic is the true golden science which fixes this if we pay attention. The science has ruled on this, but society hasn't caught up.
a. Ad hominems. An ad hominem is a personal attack. In truth there are different version of what an ad hominem is depending on how formal the conversation is.
In some debate situations, an ad hominem is defined as ANY USE OF ANY REFERENCE AT ALL TO THE COMMUNICATEE IN THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE>...
You are allowed to greet and you are allowed to say goodbye, but in the strictest sense, the moment a person starts talking about the other person rather
than the persons stated ideas they have drifted from focus on what is relevant.
In more common parlance, or in legal language, for instance, an ad hominem is committed any time a person specifically attacks another person.
In either case, an ad hominem is wrong because it makes the talker the subject and thus changes the subject.
b. straw man arguments. When somebody misrepresents what you said and distorts it, or creates an entirely new argument and claims that its yours,
and then knocks that down instead of your argument, thats a straw man argument.
C. Double bind. The best example i am in often is the jerk who insults me ten times for being an idiot according to them and then holds it against me
later for "bragging" that my IQ is 180. Well, my IQ is 180, and they are the ones who brought up the subject of my intelligence.
Or the people whos argument is that you spammed them. Right so your argument is
"i can't handle this its too big and i don't have enough attention span to look
at it so you are bad for even bringing it up" kinds of trippers. Your then damned if you do bother to present the information they obviously don't have
and damned if you don't by such logic.
d. There are these things in language called propositiions, syllogisms, and arguments. Learn what they are and how they stack into each other.
e. Then there is the definition, in conversational logic, of validity, cogency, and TRUTH VALUE.
f. While the current trend is of course anarchy and anarchism with trolls laying claim to waste any ideas to do anything smarter, the first site on the net
which actually employs formal logic to drive both moderation and administration (leading conversations and tossing TROLLS off by confiscating their accounts.)
will evolve rapidly into a viral phenomenon. This will make such a site extremely popular once it takes off, and will then spawn a new set of
competition variables as other places try to implement and create similar social situations.
g. The main reason for this is that formal logic organizes the grand conversation into something auto self searched. With one good moderator leading a conversation
with their head also in a textbook, that moderator can lead a conversation which is incredibly smart, informative, interesting, and orders of magnitude better
than what wikipedia can now do because it too is based still on pack psychology.
h. The second reason for this is that formal logic directly weeds out social parasites so effectively and so quickly that the social energies now being employed to
keep the population ignorant would be blown off and the natural evolutionary sequence which has been being held back by an enormous artificial earth dam
can burst through all that and claim everything waiting for us at the next intellectual evolutionary level.
i. Conversational logic is thus the "Severity" side of our model. It turns you into a coldly rational and calculating individual with no biases
and a clear and lucid understanding of the difference between what you really do know and what you probably don't.

6. Non Violent communication or NVC is a relationship and communications meta model which converts positive energy relating into a very simple ritualized form
of conversation.





7. Maslow and Pavlov fill out the rest of the side of mercy.



8. My suggestion to tribe then is this;

1. Run a user based back ground check on the hard core users who are interested in it,
and then pick 3 user liasons per each paid staff member.
2. These volunteers will act as secretaries and as a sort of interface with tribers.
3. The new moderators will not have unsub powers for tribe as a whole but should have limited global moderation powers
to do things like move posts. (deletion is always problematic as then its missing. Organizing it is better. Similarly, don't unsub an account,
get into it as an admin and change the password. Think how much easier that would now make the task of giving me back my old account.
(prometheuspan@hotmail.com. I was unsubbed for reporting a stalker.I wasn't asking for her removal i was asking for a moderator to talk some sense
into her.And then later warning people in tribes about her once i saw her in action abusing others. She got like a dozen people unsubbed before the staff
unsubbed her apparently realizing who was the real culprit.)
4. The new moderators will HOST tribe. that means that they will chat with tribers in a few limited tribes, lead conversations in those tribes,
and occasionally come into situations as a third element in a dispute larger than a single tribe.
5. Preferably if its done right using 100 instances of that(dealing with inter/multi tribe disputes.)
to teach the mob how not to do it and then not having to deal with it much after that.
6. Have your moderation team open not just the five or ten tribe tribes that now exist but a whole new batch of main tribe tribes
which tribe can now feature, where the moderators lead conversations smart and ultra civil as demonstrations of how it can be done that way.
The list of topics is as easy as obamas platform planks plus 50 sciences. With a tribe on astronomy thats got good moderation, you should have
a virtual open ended textbook on astronomy that beats google searches for depth, quality and ease of access as well as information density.

IE; show tribers how smart management of a tribe can turn a tribe into something truly useful, educational, ultra civil, and etc.
7. Don't require all tribes to be like that.
8. Each tribe has its own sort of charter for social protocols and thats as it should be. Global moderators should take this into account.
A troll who starts a troll tribe to play innocently with their inner and other peoples trolls can be left alone to bicker and ad hominem and straw man
away to his hearts content; thats that tribes version of social order and it has its own logic and rules which should be respected.

9. By one definition then a TROLL is somebody who tries to change the social order always back to pack psychology and bully tactics; a verbal bully.
a. all bullies by definition are actually weak minded vampires.
b. so if you help their minds get stronger, they can fix, or...
c. If you help them put together a psychology kit thats self sufficient, they can quit being vampires.
d. The real key to problem solving process with TROLLS is to see them as victims of bad ideas.
good moderation is not about punishing somebody, its about educating them and empowering them to have a better tactic.
Its not about caging people, but about liberating them.
10. The troll complaint against rules is that such interfere with personal liberty. What is never discussed and never pointed out is that a
sociey run by pack psychology and bullies isn't a liberated society either. A bullies idea is that its his personal liberty to boss people around,
harass them, stalk them, belittle, slander, attack, etc. That idea is a wrong idea, ethically, socially, and by now, perhaps most important evolutionarilly.
The real truth abut cages and liberty in social systems is that we now exist in a civilization of wage slavery as a cage and troll propaganda warfare for
our intellectual public discourse. Its pathetic.Its a cage, and the way out of it is to realize that good rules don't hinder personal liberty, they are
the ballwarks and the foundations upon which a society gains enough energy for us to have personal liberties.You can't be liberated or free in a society which sees
you as a labor commodity or which treats you like meat. You can't be liberated or free in a tribe where TROLLZ shoot down all of the better thinking by attacking the
geeks so that they can be the alphas.
Good social rules are the wings a social system uses to fly. Without them, any social system is going to be grounded in the banal, and confined to the lowest common
denominators in terms of IQ and attention span.
So the real truth is that the trolls are the ones selling mental cages and i am the one whos offering true liberty.
11. To implement a successful moderation system requires close attention to the above principle.
Moderation is not about controlling people, its about giving them the wings to let them fly. The trolls are projecting their trip about their own mental cages,
which has nothing to do with reality as it is. THEIR rules are the mental cage.
True liberty is when a group of 30 people fall into phase and become a super genius think tank off exploring some interesting aspect of reality.
True liberty is when your ten hobby groups totally rock and your life is awesome because you have such great support for your hobby group.
12. So, you have your moderation team running these tribes aimed for peak performance in demonstration of what a tribe can do; the very top
of what can be done with a tribe. And those demonstrations then help people to learn and to see what to do and how to work making their own tribes better.
And if you are smart, eventually what happens is the moderation styles somewhat catch on, and then tribe becomes a place with lots of "troll" hang outs
but without an over-all TROLL dominance of the site.

13. This is of course just a bullet point brief, I can detail it but i think it might be better to work democratically towards detailing better than i would alone.
The upshod on two sides is that you need a moderation team. You can do that with or without me personally, but it seems like a waste to waste such a well
educated and lucid volunteer. Aside from myself, the persons i know of on tribe i might nominate as others include lokifreign, wild apache, djarum, and, until recently,
shatter, tho i may have been too kind in my estimation of him. Dimi comes to mind, patasapien, tho i doubt either of them would be interested.

The people you want are the ones who previously walked the line. The people who managed to live as both sides of their nature in a prodictive over all manner.
People who can hang with the trolls or with the TROLLs. And yet who can come to a conversation and be present and lucid and adult while still making their case
and making an argument.

The problem is if you get somebody whos like djarum used to be; idealist and shell shocked and demanding that the world be sterile to suit them.
Thats too far the other direction.

I'll continue to write this little missive and keep you updated for versions, since its becoming so relevant.
:)

In the meantime, again, I ask, how can tribe solve these problems sanely rather than trying to absolve itself of culpability
and sweep things always under the carpet?

I am offering solutions not merely accusations, i am offering evolution not as shatter accuses "spamming."

So, please answer this thread with your own ideas about how to make tribe better, how to do moderation without doing fascism,
and etc.

thanks in advance,
peace
pan