Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging

please translate:

Hi,

Following on today's announcement about privacy controls, we wanted to drop a note to everybody who currently has a Mature profile. That's because on or about 12/20, we’ll make the following changes that affect you:

1) We’re implementing Community Flagging. To ensure that all posts are respectful, and to respond to concerns from our users about some of the content on the site being offensive, we’re going to allow members to flag content (photos and listings) for removal. In our judgment, at least some of your photos are likely to be flagged for removal by other tribe.net members.

2) We’re updating our Terms of Use (“TOU”). This update is to reflect changes in the legal environment facing us and our members. In particular, posting content that portrays obscenity, pornography, or sexually explicit conduct is for practical purposes illegal for members like ours under U.S. federal law. So it will be prohibited in our TOU, and we will drop the “Mature” designation from your profile and site wide. Your profile will be viewable to any visitor or member, except for content that you’ve designated Friends Only.

3) We’re switching all the photos in your photo album to Friends Only status. This is to give you time to decide which ones need to be removed, and which ones don’t.

What to do now: we suggest you remove all photos that you think are likely to be considered in violation of the new TOU. Then remove the mature mark (before 12/20) on your profile, at

www.tribe.net/template/ac...reProfile.vm

Doing this now will save you a lot of work down the road.

This is an important transition for Tribe, one we’ve had to think through long and hard. We appreciate your help and patience as we all get through this. If you have questions, we’ll be discussing this online at tribeideas.tribe.net

Thanks,

Wade Lagrone
VP Marketing
www.tribe.net/template/pub%2CAbout.vm

P.S. If you have so many photos to remove that it’s a big chore, let us know and we’ll figure out a way to help.
======================================

It may see obvious to staff but it is not that clear to me.

So I can't have what I want (because it might offend) in a friends only view?

Will all nudity be considered obscene and prohibited?
For instance.
Will pictures of folks naked at Burning Man now be banned?
and
Will art photographyof nudes now be banned?

I have a somewhat famous picture of Tom Waites in the dressing room of what appears to be a burlesque theater and behing him is a topless woman. there is no interaction between the two. Would this picture be banned?

In your definitions of mature content. You state nudity is subject to the mature designation, that is clear but in your new T.O.U. you only use "obscenity, pornography, or sexually explicit conduct.". Itis kinda vague. Please define obscene, pornography and sexually explicit conduct. would two nudes kissing be explicit as in images from greek mytholgy?
Please be more "explicit" in your defintions.

This new policy makes things much more confusing rather than adding any clarity. I think the Mature Profile designation made a lot of sense. Beyond the questions already asked, I have significant concerns about this "community flaggin" piece. It seems like that now people in Podunck, Kansas; Hicktown, Alabama and Godly, Texas will be able to proscribe content on profiles and tribes that originate in San Francisco, Portland and New York. They ain't exactly got the same community values, you know!

Mark

Just to throw some extra information in here, "obscenity" tends to be a community standard.

"Sexually explicit conduct", however, is tightly defined in terms of the relevant law (section 2257). The text of the law is here: www.freespeechcoalition.com/pdf/...0.pdf

Let the debate continue.

Whatever happened to "if you don't like it, don't look at it"?????
Seriously, like I am forcing anybody to look at my profile pictures?!?!?!

what is tribes definition of obscene? And will they tow under for some religious fundamentalist definition?

And the comment "It's more tribe-like for users to decide together what content is appropriate or not." How many users does it take to decide that? 1? 2? If I decide that a pic of 2 guys kissing is obscene will you take that off?

I for one, think this makes tribe less respectful and less enjoyable-

maybe its time to find a new venue.

I can see this working well for some problems... but it might be a nightmare for others depending on how the "community-flagging" is implemented and the terms "Obscenity" and "Pornography" are validated.

A user tag based system might be better in the long run than flagging as it would allow users to block possible offending content by keyword. Tagging by the people posting photo's should be simple enough... Community tagging might be a little more complicated. If i post something I see as "Blue" and tag it Blue, someone else may tag this "Red" if thats how they see it. So a method for contesting inappropriate tags would need to be made. Maybe some sort of voting for community tags...

Obscenity laws are written to be as vague as possible.
Currently, they're being used to shut down sites that have to do with BDSM- consensual kink between adults.
I object to tribe accepting that. As the moderator of BDSM related tribes, and a member of many more, I feel that not allowing people to show pictures of bondage rigging, welts, miads in service, etc. is inappropriate and unacceptable.
I understand that the US is coming down hard on "obscenity" and "pornography"- however, that isn't just nudity, it's also bondage with clothes on, and anything that seems power-exchange-like. What's next? men holding hands is obscene? Do we sit down and let that happen too?
I don't think these changes are all right at all. I feel that it's taking censorship to a new low. If you find pictures offensive, don't look at them- any adult should be able to handle that. PLEASE don't let the government win this by taking away the mature heading and making tribe under wraps. I feel very strongly that you will lose a lot of people by doing that.

Obscenity laws are written to be as vague as possible.
Currently, they're being used to shut down sites that have to do with BDSM- consensual kink between adults.
I object to tribe accepting that. As the moderator of BDSM related tribes, and a member of many more, I feel that not allowing people to show pictures of bondage rigging, welts, miads in service, etc. is inappropriate and unacceptable.
I understand that the US is coming down hard on "obscenity" and "pornography"- however, that isn't just nudity, it's also bondage with clothes on, and anything that seems power-exchange-like. What's next? men holding hands is obscene? Do we sit down and let that happen too?
I don't think these changes are all right at all. I feel that it's taking censorship to a new low. If you find pictures offensive, don't look at them- any adult should be able to handle that. PLEASE don't let the government win this by taking away the mature heading and making tribe under wraps. I feel very strongly that you will lose a lot of people by doing that.

Alrighty then. I'm gonna ask my questions and comment point by point.

1. this is understandable on both fronts. Respect and positive environments are a rare commodity in this era, though very much desired and someone will always find something offensive. That being said, the entire subject of this paragraph is just that, subjective, as each of those terms mean something different to each person.

2. I would like to know what this means exactly. In as general laymen type of terms as possible to still understand what this means as far as what type of trouble tribe.net could get into via user content and what could constitute a violation. As well as what speciffic law pertains to this and when/who passed it.

3. I can agree to "majority rules" in theory. But in practice, what is to stop say an radical Christian group from from flooding tribe.net and flagging everything they disagree with as offensive, like: yoga, bellydance, buhddism, hindi, pagan, midwifery (pictures of babies being born...oh my!), polyamory, gothic anything etc?
and will this extend to discussions, like for instance how sex has changed for ppl over the age of 35, or what sexual practices are safe/unsafe during pregnancy, or sexual/spiritual unity through tantric practice et al?

Also I'm pretty certain my profile was marked as mature due to freinds/tribes I was linked to as there was nothing on my profile prior to it being marked that could even be considered risque in the form of pics. Sometime after it was marked, I added an art print that had nekkid boobies in it, but it certainly isn't sexual.

While I don't think there is any kind of authoritarian desire to control content from tribe.net, I do think Americans need to be careful on what kind of authoritarian control they allow to be pressed upon them. IMHO we live in a dangerous age, that is starting to resemble our forbears' fears and futurists novels. As a bumber sticker said "Go ahead, take my civil rights... I wasn't using them anyway.

feel free to pm me if you want to answer any of this offline.

Love is the only thing that matters... everything else is just details,
E

Since this thread only started 2 hours ago, I just wanted to make sure that Warren or whoever else is in charge can tell us what definition of obscenity and pornography will be used for their TOU.

That being said, I was worried myself about possible repercussions towards Tribe from some of the content I found myself. There truly is some pretty bad stuff (photos) posted in the mature tribes, and this is coming from someone who has been exposed and has no problem with most of it. But some of it I saw and just said "Why would someone do that? I just don't understand." I don't want to point fingers at the tribes in question, but the photos went to such extremes that I really did worry Tribe would get in trouble.

So I hope the mucky mucks answer soon. I am against extreme censorship, but I want Tribe to be successful and proliferous too. It's such a home for me that I don't want anything bad to happen to them, you know?

Blessings,
Mama Gaea

I don't understand the "friends only" thing:
1) If I have a picture of ... porn/art/erotica ... labled as "friends only" is it OK to have in my profile?
2) If a tribe is maked private, can any content (visual or verbal) be maintained?
3) If not, why bother adding the 'friends only' anyway?

I think it's bullshit that my profile is marked "mature" because I have two very artistic, non-explicit, art nude photos of myself.

This means that, according to this note just issued re: photos, ALL of my photos will be marked friends-only around the 20th. Which means that, due to those two photos, I'll have to spend HOW long wasting my time, going in there, marking them all public again?

I don't think I should have to remove two artistic photos for the time being, just to save myself all this time un-doing what Tribe is going to "oh so helpfully" do for me.

Grrrrr.

> 3. It's more tribe-like for users to decide together what content is appropriate or not.

That's garbage. If it were tribe-like, your new TOU would have been written and approved by the community. Most users, I predict (and this thread bears out) will be seriously torqued off. Don't pretend that this corporate maneuvering isn't motivated by fear of legal action, and don't assume that we are so stupid as to not notice.

Tribe is here to make money, not to pander to some non-existent notion of community; don't insult our intelligence.

Thanks.

will these changes also pertain to text? besides the listings?

can a tribe TALK about whatever it wants, still?

I just wrote to Wade, but I'll toss this out to anyone with authority to respond...

In addition to being a Tribe.net member, I'm assistant editor for YNOT.com, an adult webmaster resource site.

We're interested in why these changes came about. Are they part of a response to 2257 concerns? How will you define obscenity, especially since the courts currently can't come up with a definition. Some questions that I have include:

Are you aware that indecent materials are not illegal?

How will you define as "sexually explicit conduct" or "pornography?"

Thanks,
Theresa/Darklady

Note folks:

Tribe.Net (of which I have no official affiliation beyond being a user) basically has it's balls in a salad shooter over mature content.

It's been brought up before, and my dislexia got the numbers wrong in other places.... however, this is the REAL reason for the changes...

In light of this... we of course, have a tribe...

tribes.tribe.net/2257sucks


§ 2257. Record keeping requirements
Release date: 2005-08-03

(a) Whoever produces any book, magazine, periodical, film, videotape, or other matter which—
(1) contains one or more visual depictions made after November 1, 1990 of actual sexually explicit conduct; and
(2) is produced in whole or in part with materials which have been mailed or shipped in interstate or foreign commerce, or is shipped or transported or is intended for shipment or transportation in interstate or foreign commerce;
shall create and maintain individually identifiable records pertaining to every performer portrayed in such a visual depiction.
(b) Any person to whom subsection (a) applies shall, with respect to every performer portrayed in a visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct—
(1) ascertain, by examination of an identification document containing such information, the performer’s name and date of birth, and require the performer to provide such other indicia of his or her identity as may be prescribed by regulations;
(2) ascertain any name, other than the performer’s present and correct name, ever used by the performer including maiden name, alias, nickname, stage, or professional name; and
(3) record in the records required by subsection (a) the information required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection and such other identifying information as may be prescribed by regulation.
(c) Any person to whom subsection (a) applies shall maintain the records required by this section at his business premises, or at such other place as the Attorney General may by regulation prescribe and shall make such records available to the Attorney General for inspection at all reasonable times.
(d)
(1) No information or evidence obtained from records required to be created or maintained by this section shall, except as provided in this section, directly or indirectly, be used as evidence against any person with respect to any violation of law.
(2) Paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not preclude the use of such information or evidence in a prosecution or other action for a violation of this chapter or chapter 71, or for a violation of any applicable provision of law with respect to the furnishing of false information.
(e)
(1) Any person to whom subsection (a) applies shall cause to be affixed to every copy of any matter described in paragraph (1) of subsection (a) of this section, in such manner and in such form as the Attorney General shall by regulations prescribe, a statement describing where the records required by this section with respect to all performers depicted in that copy of the matter may be located.
(2) If the person to whom subsection (a) of this section applies is an organization the statement required by this subsection shall include the name, title, and business address of the individual employed by such organization responsible for maintaining the records required by this section.
(f) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person to whom subsection (a) applies to fail to create or maintain the records as required by subsections (a) and (c) or by any regulation promulgated under this section;
(2) for any person to whom subsection (a) applies knowingly to make any false entry in or knowingly to fail to make an appropriate entry in, any record required by subsection (b) of this section or any regulation promulgated under this section;
(3) for any person to whom subsection (a) applies knowingly to fail to comply with the provisions of subsection (e) or any regulation promulgated pursuant to that subsection; and
(4) for any person knowingly to sell or otherwise transfer, or offer for sale or transfer, any book, magazine, periodical, film, video, or other matter, produce in whole or in part with materials which have been mailed or shipped in interstate or foreign commerce or which is intended for shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, which—
(A) contains one or more visual depictions made after the effective date of this subsection of actual sexually explicit conduct; and
(B) is produced in whole or in part with materials which have been mailed or shipped in interstate or foreign commerce, or is shipped or transported or is intended for shipment or transportation in interstate or foreign commerce;
which does not have affixed thereto, in a manner prescribed as set forth in subsection (e)(1), a statement describing where the records required by this section may be located, but such person shall have no duty to determine the accuracy of the contents of the statement or the records required to be kept.
(g) The Attorney General shall issue appropriate regulations to carry out this section.
(h) As used in this section—
(1) the term “actual sexually explicit conduct” means actual but not simulated conduct as defined in subparagraphs (A) through (D) of paragraph (2) of section 2256 of this title;
(2) “identification document” has the meaning given that term in section 1028 (d) of this title;
(3) the term “produces” means to produce, manufacture, or publish any book, magazine, periodical, film, video tape, computer generated image, digital image, or picture, or other similar matter and includes the duplication, reproduction, or reissuing of any such matter, but does not include mere distribution or any other activity which does not involve hiring, contracting for managing, or otherwise arranging for the participation of the performers depicted; and
(4) the term “performer” includes any person portrayed in a visual depiction engaging in, or assisting another person to engage in, actual sexually explicit conduct.
(i) Whoever violates this section shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, and fined in accordance with the provisions of this title, or both. Whoever violates this section after having been convicted of a violation punishable under this section shall be imprisoned for any period of years not more than 10 years but not less than 2 years, and fined in accordance with the provisions of this title, or both.

How does craislist answer these objections? and legal requirements? They have a strictly mature section. Why can't tribe have one?