In response to the many comments, suggestions, and even rants over time, and a great deal of internal discussion and review, we're going to be making some changes in the near future on our Mature policy, and the TOU. We're also going to be introducing a new feature called Community Flagging.
This new system will replace our current Mature system altogether. The TOU is changing to prohibit content that "portrays obscenity, pornography, or sexually explicit conduct."
We expect these changes to happen on or about December 20th, depending on the vagaries of engineering all of this.
Why are we doing this? Three basic reasons:
1. We want Tribe to be a respectful, positive environment. Some users, even with the Mature system in place, were still coming across content they found offensive.
2. The legal environment for adult content online has changed dramatically.
3. It's more tribe-like for users to decide together what content is appropriate or not. This allows us to stop marking somebody's profile as "mature" if they have a single risque photo in it, etc.
I'm sure some will welcome these changes, and some will not; and that there will be a lot of questions. As such, I'd like to get the questions and answers rolling now, so we're more in sync as the changes happen.
Fire away!
This new system will replace our current Mature system altogether. The TOU is changing to prohibit content that "portrays obscenity, pornography, or sexually explicit conduct."
We expect these changes to happen on or about December 20th, depending on the vagaries of engineering all of this.
Why are we doing this? Three basic reasons:
1. We want Tribe to be a respectful, positive environment. Some users, even with the Mature system in place, were still coming across content they found offensive.
2. The legal environment for adult content online has changed dramatically.
3. It's more tribe-like for users to decide together what content is appropriate or not. This allows us to stop marking somebody's profile as "mature" if they have a single risque photo in it, etc.
I'm sure some will welcome these changes, and some will not; and that there will be a lot of questions. As such, I'd like to get the questions and answers rolling now, so we're more in sync as the changes happen.
Fire away!
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:23 AMplease translate:
Hi,
Following on today's announcement about privacy controls, we wanted to drop a note to everybody who currently has a Mature profile. That's because on or about 12/20, we’ll make the following changes that affect you:
1) We’re implementing Community Flagging. To ensure that all posts are respectful, and to respond to concerns from our users about some of the content on the site being offensive, we’re going to allow members to flag content (photos and listings) for removal. In our judgment, at least some of your photos are likely to be flagged for removal by other tribe.net members.
2) We’re updating our Terms of Use (“TOU”). This update is to reflect changes in the legal environment facing us and our members. In particular, posting content that portrays obscenity, pornography, or sexually explicit conduct is for practical purposes illegal for members like ours under U.S. federal law. So it will be prohibited in our TOU, and we will drop the “Mature” designation from your profile and site wide. Your profile will be viewable to any visitor or member, except for content that you’ve designated Friends Only.
3) We’re switching all the photos in your photo album to Friends Only status. This is to give you time to decide which ones need to be removed, and which ones don’t.
What to do now: we suggest you remove all photos that you think are likely to be considered in violation of the new TOU. Then remove the mature mark (before 12/20) on your profile, at
www.tribe.net/template/ac...reProfile.vm
Doing this now will save you a lot of work down the road.
This is an important transition for Tribe, one we’ve had to think through long and hard. We appreciate your help and patience as we all get through this. If you have questions, we’ll be discussing this online at tribeideas.tribe.net
Thanks,
Wade Lagrone
VP Marketing
www.tribe.net/template/pub%2CAbout.vm
P.S. If you have so many photos to remove that it’s a big chore, let us know and we’ll figure out a way to help.
======================================
It may see obvious to staff but it is not that clear to me.
So I can't have what I want (because it might offend) in a friends only view? -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:34 AMAs a moderator of a mature tribe, I am concerned that the new Terms will prohibit the posting of mature content - what exactly do the terms mean in regard to obscenity and pornography? Is nudity classified as obscene? For lack of a better way of saying it, is an image of an aroused male classified as pornography or obscenity? If so, many mature tribes will have no choice but to cease to exist. -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:38 AMand does any of this matter if tribes that are kept in "private" status? -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:05 PMThe Terms of Use will prohibit content that portrays pornography, obscenity, or sexually explicit conduct, anywhere on the site.
The TOU applies to any content on tribe.net regardless of whether that content lives in a profile, a public tribe, a private tribe, or anywhere else on the website. -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:36 PMThen prepare to lose many of the eyeballs that your advertisers are wanting to hock THEIR softcore porn, among other things. If Tribe can't be a safe place for adults to BE adults, especially with a new minimum age of 18, then what purpose does it serve at all? -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 12:41 AMWhy, in just a few days...uh...none at all. Everyone will leave. Well, maybe not everyone, but quite a few.
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Thu, December 8, 2005 - 5:23 AMNOTE PEOPLE:
Gary is cutting and pasting. He's going to give this same answer over and over BECAUSE HE HAS TO.
This is the ONLY answer he can give.
--S
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 5:15 PMwhat is classed as "sexually explicit conduct"? i see nothing offensive in a member listing interests in, for example, sex, BDSM, porn, gay and lesbian, wanking, dildoes, whatever... I don't have to engage with them or read further if I do not wish! I would hope that this is viewed likewise by Tribe. All I can say is, thank god for LiveJournal... -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 6:05 PMConduct?
Noting about Conduct. CONTENT however is directly refering to Pictures, not text, hoever the Bush regime has been expanding into Erotic fiction.
However, listing your interests and being arrested for that hasn't happened yet.
--S
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:40 AMmature tribes are gonna be done away with, yeah? if stuff can be flagged, are we supposed to remove ALL content that may offend someone? what if my art or religious stuff is offensive to a fundamentalist? in other words, where are you guys drawing the line? are we going to have to watch our language in our own tribes as well?? -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 12:04 PMI left yahoo because I so hated the lack of any censorship and moderation--anyone who has seen the yahoo news boards knows what I mean.
I came to tribe for the balance of freedom and restraint.
tribe has now gone to far in the other direction, in my opinion. -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 12:15 PMI agree Traci! It's unfortunate to see that the Nazis have hooked their claws into Tribe now. This was once a place where everyone could be open to express themselves in their own individual ways. Now it's just another follow the herd hum-drum. -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 12:21 PMWhat a fucking joke.
The Disneyfication of content and interaction.
Let's all go play Barbies.
geesh.
~MTS~ -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:19 PM"Let's all go play Barbies. " talk about obscene. Holding up this kind of model that makes little girls of color feel inferior cause they aren't arian and promoting anorexic bimbos with boob jobs and collagen inflated lips with botox brows!
GAH!
E
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:13 PMWe'll be removing the "mature" designation from the site when we release the new Community Flagging tools.
When we make this change, any existing tribes that are designated "mature" will be made private, and moved to the "other" category.
In effect, we're not drawing a line other than stating that content portraying obscenity, pornography, and sexually explicit conduct is prohibited on our site. The Community Flagging tools will be in the hands of tribe.net members, and it's up to them to define where the line is, and to enforce it. -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:15 PM<When we make this change, any existing tribes that are designated "mature" will be made private, and moved to the "other" category.>
And how are "mature" tribes defined?
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:20 PM"The Community Flagging tools will be in the hands of tribe.net members, and it's up to them to define where the line is, and to enforce it."
Gary, this has worked out HORRIBLY on Craigslist. Anybody with spare time and an ax to grind can do a lot of damage. -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:25 PMDoes Craigslist have a way to dispute censoring posts?
Being able to dispute deletion *is really important*, because you could have, for example, an ex (and his buddies) who like causing trouble, or a bunch of homophobes/fundies/prudes/naysayers with too much free time who could easily wreak havoc on a progressive system. -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:28 PMOh, and I forgot...
ANTI-BUSH/Anti-war graphics, photos - very easy to offend a God-fearing, Bush-loving, gay-hating, war-mongering kind of folk... -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Thu, December 8, 2005 - 12:02 AMSpeaking of CL - there was ONE post I ever made to CL, and it was removed within 5 minutes.
I suggested that people with extra money/ food/ blankets give it to homeless people/ shelters (pre-Katrina, etc, btw) instead of throwing it away as their posts suggested they were going to do.
This was apparently offensive to people, and my post was removed, while the many I saw still up mocking various peoples' sexualk identities/ genders/ races/ etc etc etc were still up, because of *which* groups tend to be the ones to bitch.
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 5:22 PMWhat is pornography?
Do you know it when you see it?
Who's seeing it?
""Pornography" (or "porn") usually refers to representations designed to arouse and give sexual pleasure to those who read, see, hear, or handle them."
"Eroticism is what turns me on. Pornography is what turns you on." - Al Goldstein.
Given the vast array of fetishes, obviously anything, graphic, written, or otherwise could be construed as pornographic within standard legal tests. While I'm sure Tribe's management thinks (as they said to Violet Blue) that this is a simple, easily comprehensible definition, such a stand merely illustrates a monochromatic viewpoint that is completely out of step with reality.
Pornography is entirely legal, but as of now not allowed on Tribe. Tribe is taking a step that is far more conservative than any plausible legal requirement, and entirely inconsistent with their historical user base and community which was largely differentiated from blander social networks by it's tolerance and openness.
No more.
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:41 AMOh and how about those of us into mermaids...
Will the mermaid tribes be censored for bare bosoms and nipples? -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 3:47 PMYou go girl!!!!! I'm with you!!
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sun, December 11, 2005 - 11:07 AMMermaids were censored because they are obviously the result of sexual intercourse between some kind of sea creature and a human OR the result of a pagan goddess fleeing to the sea and being partially changed...
The first case is beastiality and we just can't condone that... the second case involves the belief in the existance of some kind of higher being that isn't outlined in sunday school or may cause texas or florida school children to question something. I believe the mormons were also concerned when the possibility of questions arose...
Overall, mermaids and mermen are just untenable in the current legal environment where, as I understand from this original post, sex or porn are illegal to post on the web.
Even if it were "porn" porn isn't illegal, yet, thank god, and goddess....
Rev Mike -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sun, December 11, 2005 - 1:09 PM<Mermaids were censored because they are obviously the result of sexual intercourse between some kind of sea creature and a human OR the result of a pagan goddess fleeing to the sea and being partially changed...>
Under the already mature system where anyone could get tagged as mature by anyone mermaids were obviously made mature by those with grudges or major prudery only if said mermaids were topless--which would be the natural state of mermaids in their environment.
It is not about bestiality or paganism--good grief! -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Mon, December 12, 2005 - 5:40 PM
It is not about bestiality or paganism--good grief!
That was my point.... I was being sardonic -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Mon, December 12, 2005 - 5:50 PMSo much has gotten so over the top on the threads here, it hard to tell anymore.
My apologies.
:) -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Mon, December 12, 2005 - 6:00 PMya I mean, I know nothing about that myself.
--S
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:41 AMI'm an artist..I draw nude people...in a classical way..at school...its in no way porn.....
so do I have to change anything? my profile is marked "Mature"...even though they are school drawings..
ok...so I dont understand....can I keep them up? and..um..i dont know...I want anyone who wants to see my art be able to look at it.
ciao
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:53 PMHang on... Tribe is not the producer the of explicit matter, it is the members.
In the law cited by Wade it says that: a photo reproducer, as long as they have no commercial interest in the explicit material production, reproduction, sale, distribution, or other transfer of the material is exempt, similar to 75.1(c)(4)(i).
I believe tribes involvement is not of entering into a commercial agreement to make money from the explicit material. So playing safe, as long as tribe does not put ads on pages marked as mature, they are making no money from the distribution of material, and thus exempt, and need to not jump through hoops.
That seems a far better solution to me.
My personal opinion is many Americans are too prudish and uptight, and feel they have the right to control how others behave because they cannot control their child, so they lobby for laws to do it. I wish they'd take some responsibilty for their lives! Ironically, many of these people who want censorship, turn out to be doing this or worse in private, this but won't admit it, even when they are caught - hypocrits. -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 4:58 PMSorry, it may not be "many Americans" I have no way of quantifying it.
I could be a vocal minority that get heard. :-(
There are still too many of them.
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Thu, December 8, 2005 - 5:29 AM"I believe tribes involvement is not of entering into a commercial agreement to make money from the explicit material."
They are generating revenue from ads displayed on a site that has pornography.
Thus, they ARE making money from it.
--S
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 12:48 AMNo, Bryan, it's not the law that's got them running. There are rumours that Google is looking to buy Tribe.net because Orkut is too boring, or they just want a different demographic. Tribe may be thinking they can deliver the "alternative and exciting" crowd into Google's (or some other buyer's) waiting arms. The thing they have not thought out well is that you can't have an alternative community without the stuff that makes it "alternative".
Even if it's not a buy-out, most companies purge like this right before courting VC money...can't have under-18 users and nekkid pix where the boys with the bucks can see them... -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 6:02 AMOrkut has the Brazil market locked up real good.
They love orkut cause they're all on dialup and can't tell how slow the site is.
--S -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 1:27 PMI just see it as circle talking bullshit being spewed by a couple of sell-out cowards who are now cashing in on us. After the 20th I'm taking as many as I can with me to anywhere but here. I am a fighter but I don't fight for spineless pricks. -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 3:08 PMSo you're gonna run before you even see what the waters look like.
Ya. I want you watching my back. Right.
--S -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 3:18 PMPlay the mind game all you want. And it isn't running either. I just don't believe in standing up for cowards who won't stand up for themselves. The Tribe Owners are not standing up for themselves nor any of us. -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 3:45 PMWhat makes you think that?
Try reading between the lines beefcake.
--S -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 8:32 AM"reading between the lines?" the lines themselves are disturbing enough, thanks.
perhaps you can explain exactly how "celebrating diversity" by oppressing the freedom to express ourselves is going to work?
"beefcake" why yes he is and we like him that way. -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 4:51 PMIf I have to hear the word Diversity one more time I'm going to get an Armalite AR-15 and systematically hunt down and shoot everyone with .223 FMJ rounds.
Ok, so I'm paraphrasing Fight CLub... you get the idea.
Get a new word people.
I swear it's like I'm stuck in the movie PCU or something.
Also... Unity > Diversity
Think about it.
--S -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 21, 2005 - 5:38 PM>>>I'm going to get an Armalite AR-15
--->The AR-15 is made by National Fabrique jack ass!
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 21, 2005 - 5:52 PMHate to tell you this but that's old law that makes a difference tween the commercial and non commercial.
You can look that up on the Free Speech Coalition's website for more info.
There is a diffence in law tween photographs and created art.
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 7:14 PMShame on Tribe for caving in to radical fundamentalist groups who do not know how to control themselves. If you don't want to look at my profile then don't click on my link. How dare you give someone the power to flag my content. It is marked mature, if you don't like mature then go away, don't look, censor yourself, don't censor me. -
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Unsu...
Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 7:27 PMYou really love Micheal Moore movies don't you.
--S
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:49 AMWill all nudity be considered obscene and prohibited?
For instance.
Will pictures of folks naked at Burning Man now be banned?
and
Will art photographyof nudes now be banned?
I have a somewhat famous picture of Tom Waites in the dressing room of what appears to be a burlesque theater and behing him is a topless woman. there is no interaction between the two. Would this picture be banned?
In your definitions of mature content. You state nudity is subject to the mature designation, that is clear but in your new T.O.U. you only use "obscenity, pornography, or sexually explicit conduct.". Itis kinda vague. Please define obscene, pornography and sexually explicit conduct. would two nudes kissing be explicit as in images from greek mytholgy?
Please be more "explicit" in your defintions.
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 11:58 AMThis new policy makes things much more confusing rather than adding any clarity. I think the Mature Profile designation made a lot of sense. Beyond the questions already asked, I have significant concerns about this "community flaggin" piece. It seems like that now people in Podunck, Kansas; Hicktown, Alabama and Godly, Texas will be able to proscribe content on profiles and tribes that originate in San Francisco, Portland and New York. They ain't exactly got the same community values, you know!
Mark -
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Re: Upcoming Changes: Mature, and Flagging
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 12:19 PMon the community standard issue:
>>It seems like that now people in Podunck, Kansas...
>>will be able to proscribe content on profiles
>>and tribes that originate in San Francisco
The answer here is "not really", though I see your point. It's true that we'll have a national standard, but it's also true that practically speaking it'd be unlikely that a single user in some small town would be able to seriously swing our sitewide standard one way or another. That's because of the way the flagging works, and also because most of our traffic is from cities like SF, LA, NYC, Portland, and Seattle.
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