Wade or other official tribe person, I am not interested in granting tribe perpetual rights, etc. to the poems I have posted on tribe, as per the new TOU. I need a way to go into threads and delete what is already there. I also need a way to delete my poems in threads I have started without deleting others who have not made the same choice as I have. Also, some of my poems are in now private tribes that I am no longer a member of and I have no access to them. Help please????
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 10:28 AMAs we've stated in a few other threads here and there, we are not going to be removing any content you may have posted prior to this point, or any other point.
If you do not wish to grant any rights to photographic content, simply remove it.
If you do not wish to grant rights to anything you may post in the future, do not post it. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 10:49 AMMy poems have a way of being reposted by others in threads, so there is the chance that I will not be able to monitor what happens to them in the future. That is why I am asking for a way to retreive them now.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 10:52 AM12. Infringement
If you believe that your work has been used in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, or your intellectual property rights have been otherwise violated, please notify Tribe at help@tribe.net or Tribe Networks Inc, 208 Utah Street, 3rd Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103. Provide all of the following in writing: identify the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed (or if multiple copyrighted works, then a representative list of such works); identify the content on the Service that you claim is infringing with enough detail so that we may locate it; provide a statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; provide a statement by you declaring that the notification is accurate, and, under penalty of perjury, that you are the exclusive owner of the copyright interest involved or that you are authorized to act on behalf of the exclusive owner; provide information reasonably sufficient to permit Tribe to contact you, such as an address, telephone number, and email address; and your physical or electronic signature.
Upon receipt of notice as described above, Tribe will take whatever action, in its sole discretion, it deems appropriate, including removal of the challenged use from the Service or termination of the posting account.
If tribe is Infringing on your work... they claim to take appropriate action. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:46 PMI've written to Tribe asking them to remove my copyrighted work - that is, everything I've posted to Tribe before the effective date of the new TOU. At first they told me that they would remove it only if it violated their TOU. When I pointed out that this was not acceptable, and that as the copyright holder I no longer wanted them to publish my work, I was told that they'd look into it. That's going on a week and a half now, and I haven't heard anything yet.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 11:11 AM(Not picking on Vive, or anything -- just trying to make a broader point):
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding regarding what users are doing when they post work on Tribe and other Internet-based services.
Under the common law, the creator of an original artistic work owns certain rights to prevent others from reproducing that work. That part seems relatively well understood. HOWEVER, what appears to be misunderstood by a lot of folks is that those rights can be surrendered through certain actions, regardless of whether the actor's intent is to surrender rights.
An important action that can surrender some rights is distribution of a copy of the work to another. Such distribution is considered to be accompanied by a grant of certain rights corresponding to the distribution, even in the absence of an explicit license grant. In the context of an Internet service, public posting of a work on the service's site would likely be construed by a court as a grant from the creator to the service of a license to store and display the work, at least for the normal purposes of the service.
As an example, posting a work to a thread in a tribe on Tribe.net would likely be construed as a license for Tribe.net to store and display whatever copies of the work correspond to normal copies of a post in a thread. That would likely include the right to display the post in the thread for so long as the thread endures (either as an active thread or an archived one), to cross-index the post (e.g., in the "My recent activity" section of the poster's profile), and to display other posts that quote the post in whole or in part. There are good arguments that the license would also extend to foreseeable improvements or expansions to Tribe.net (e.g., to indexing threads or making posts searchable).
I can't recall whether Tribe's former TOU made this clear (the new one does, anyway). Whether or not it did is irrelevant, though. Absent some explicit indication that stuff posted to Tribe could be withdrawn by the poster at will, a court would most likely consider that posters had no reasonable expectation that their rights in publicly posted material would be protected by Tribe beyond those protections recognized in the common law.
Whether we're talking about Tribe or some other public medium, anyone thinking of posting potentially valuable work should be careful not to give away rights they may want to enforce later.
Gary
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 12:18 PMThank you 'Gary-the good looking one....'----for your concise legal explanation. When I originally posted the poems I did not understand that I was giving away the rights to them. I merely thought I was giving tribe the right to display them, cross-reference, etc. Now that tribe has spelled out more clearly what they consider their rights to be I am trying to retreive them since I intend to publish them myself and am uncomfortable with the newly elaborated TOU.
In order to do that I need some helpful information from the tribers on how to go about it respectfully. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 3:37 PMVive, when you originally posted the poems you weren't giving away your rights to them. Tribe's "perpetual license" is an element of the new TOU. It doesn't apply to content posted before the new TOU took effect.
It's to be hoped that Tribe would be reasonable and simply remove older content when users ask them to. The fact that won't probably says something. If a few more polite requests don't do it, then you might explore other options. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 4:07 PM"Vive, when you originally posted the poems you weren't giving away your rights to them. Tribe's "perpetual license" is an element of the new TOU. It doesn't apply to content posted before the new TOU took effect."
...and how Paul, do you come to this conclusion?
"It's to be hoped that Tribe would be reasonable and simply remove older content when users ask them to. The fact that won't probably says something. If a few more polite requests don't do it, then you might explore other options."
Hope, Tribe will do it?
Rapture -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 4:36 PM>>...and how Paul, do you come to this conclusion?<<
Simple. The TOU is a contract. We enter into that contract when, having considered its terms, we affirm our acceptance of it by using Tribe's services.
However no contract applies to actions taken before the contract was written, unless it's explicitly written and agreed to as retroactive. Since Tribe doesn't give users the ability to delete posts, leaving those posts in place can't be taken as acceptance of the terms of the new contract. Therefore they're covered by the terms of the contract that was in effect when they were posted.
>>Hope, Tribe will do it?<<
Hope, yes. Expect, no. But it improves one's legal position to try all reasonable means before contacting a lawyer. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 5:03 PM" >>...and how Paul, do you come to this conclusion?<<
"Simple. The TOU is a contract. We enter into that contract when, having considered its terms, we affirm our acceptance of it by using Tribe's services."
AT&T thought that too, there terms and conditions by "agreeance by use", and as such, were struck down. So at least for me the TOU/TOS as it stands is unenforeable by a matter of law.
"However no contract applies to actions taken before the contract was written, unless it's explicitly written and agreed to as retroactive."
Assuming there is a contract, the current TOU/TOS is devoid of an express conclusion on this. Agueablly, I would agree with you, but having great experience with attorney's there is an arguement to the contrary.
"Since Tribe doesn't give users the ability to delete posts, leaving those posts in place can't be taken as acceptance of the terms of the new contract. Therefore they're covered by the terms of the contract that was in effect when they were posted."
See above. You assume.
>>Hope, Tribe will do it?<<
"Hope, yes. Expect, no. But it improves one's legal position to try all reasonable means before contacting a lawyer."
Reasonable means.. ok....contacting Tribe to remove the content. and what then, if they do not? Keep the contradictory license language in mind. What does it really mean? I have seen many explainations of the "license", which kinda denotes to it isnt really clear. However, knowing both the defendant side and the plaintiff side of things, the defendant (if suit was filed against Tribe), would agrue to best to their position and want. I.E. having the content remain (e.g. assuming Tribe's intent not providing a method to delete the same, and having the ability to provide a method to delete the content, is to have the content remain no matter what.).
Kinda see how murky it really gets, really really fast?
Rapture
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 5:23 PM>>Paul>>...Therefore they're covered by the terms of the contract that was in effect when they were posted...<<Paul<<
That's fine; assuming that there was an express contract term addressing this issue, it's a simple matter.
In the absence of an express contract term (i.e., the reason I refer back to the common law), a court would try to construct the contract that the parties 'would have intended.'
In this instance, a user under no obligation to post anything at all posted some text with no express right to delete, modify, or hide it. There was no time at which the posted text was supposed to 'expire' or be removed. There was evidently no effective way to remove posted content at the time it was posted. Despite what one party might wish after the fact, I don't see any hook on which a court could make up a 'right to withdraw' posted content. It doesn't appear that a reasonable party on either side of the transaction (at the time it occurred) expected such a right.
BTW, DMCA probably won't offer any relief, since any copyrighted content displayed by Tribe was posted there by the copyright holder herself - not a situation that DMCA's provisions cover.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 5:43 PM"In the absence of an express contract term (i.e., the reason I refer back to the common law), a court would try to construct the contract that the parties 'would have intended.' "
...which flies in the face of the portion of the TOU/TOS that indicates the termination of the license. Which the TOU/TOS is vague, ambigous, and just unclear as to what is and what is not...terminated by removal. You have to assume what is or what is not removeable, which makes the clause open to legal attack/challenge.
However .. on one hand if Tribe does say well everything you post in thread is ours, then what? Many people will go once again go ballistic. However, that is ownership. If you the user have no control per se, of the content, then that also flies in the face of Tribe saying in their TOU/TOS that they do not own anything.
So ya.. The TOU/TOS has some major problems notwithstanding if it is even a legal and binding contract from inception. (which i do not think it is.)
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 5:56 PM>>Rapture>>...which flies in the face of the portion of the TOU/TOS that indicates the termination of the license. Which the TOU/TOS is vague, ambigous, and just unclear as to what is and what is not...<<Rapture<<
To the contrary, I think the TOU is relatively cleverly written in this regard, whether by design or by accident.
>>TOU>>This license cannot be withdrawn except that any content deleted from the Tribe site will terminate the Tribe license.<<TOU<<
Note that this clause does not say "content deleted BY THE USER." If a user deleted a photo from his Tribe profile (for example) and Tribe maintained an archived copy of the photo, I think that this clause could be reasonably interpreted to mean that Tribe retains a license to display the photo as part of its archive (for example, if Tribe ever offered a 'view our dated archive' feature), so long as the photo hadn't been deleted from all Tribe records.
This is probably a meaningless hypothetical, though. I don't imagine Tribe (or Tribe users) finding much use for a dated archive.
Looking back at your message, I think you have to admit that Tribe's TOU pretty clearly says that posted material doesn't belong to Tribe -- just that if you choose to post it, Tribe has a right to display it.
TGL Gary -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 6:07 PM">>Rapture>>...which flies in the face of the portion of the TOU/TOS that indicates the termination of the license. Which the TOU/TOS is vague, ambigous, and just unclear as to what is and what is not...<<Rapture<<
"To the contrary, I think the TOU is relatively cleverly written in this regard, whether by design or by accident."
Actually, Gary, i'm not impressed with it.
Take the clause that says you cant do anything to Tribe.
This flies in the face of several California Statutes that by a matter of law/public policy are unwaivable.
I will agree that the TOS/TOU is very broad, it is also very ambigious. To the lay person, who doesnt know case law or consumer laws, .........
>>TOU>>This license cannot be withdrawn except that any content deleted from the Tribe site will terminate the Tribe license.<<TOU<<
Note that this clause does not say "content deleted BY THE USER." If a user deleted a photo from his Tribe profile (for example) and Tribe maintained an archived copy of the photo, I think that this clause could be reasonably interpreted to mean that Tribe retains a license to display the photo as part of its archive (for example, if Tribe ever offered a 'view our dated archive' feature), so long as the photo hadn't been deleted from all Tribe records."
Yet, Tribe has to provide the avenue for any delations of any type of content. Tribe is in a superior position than the end user. For them to use the photo in your hypothetical once deleted by the user...(streching and assuming here which is not specifically stated), the license is terminated. Oh wait...no the license is not terminated because it is in an archive?... which one?
"This is probably a meaningless hypothetical, though. I don't imagine Tribe (or Tribe users) finding much use for a dated archive."
See above.
"Looking back at your message, I think you have to admit that Tribe's TOU pretty clearly says that posted material doesn't belong to Tribe -- just that if you choose to post it, Tribe has a right to display it."
Actually, Gary, if that is the intent of Tribe, then Tribe needs to clearly say that, and in an enforeable contract. The questions people have about the TOU/TOS is good evidence that the TOU/TOS is unclear.
Remember we are talking actual Cal Contract Law...(among a few others) here. Just not the theorical basis for a contract.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 6:20 PM>>Rapture>>Remember we are talking actual Cal Contract Law...(among a few others) here. Just not the theorical basis for a contract. <<Rapture<<
Well, I think it's fair to summarize several of your posts as 'the TOU is unclear and possibly not an enforceable contract at all.'
Fine. I don't necessarily disagree. If this is true, then I think users are worse off. It is users (albeit an exceedingly tiny fraction of them, apparently) who may wish to exert a 'right to withdraw' content posted on Tribe. It is therefore incumbent on the users to point out the basis such a right.
Were push to come to shove, I believe a court would put the burden on a user to point to the basis for the user's 'right to withdraw content,' and that a court would not inclined to recognize any of what's been presented in the various TribeIdeas threads on this topic as a legal basis for such a right.
The justification of "because I want that right" is on the same level as "Waaah!" as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure a court would disagree. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 6:51 PM">>Rapture>>Remember we are talking actual Cal Contract Law...(among a few others) here. Just not the theorical basis for a contract. <<Rapture<<
Well, I think it's fair to summarize several of your posts as 'the TOU is unclear and possibly not an enforceable contract at all.'"
....
Fine. I don't necessarily disagree. If this is true, then I think users are worse off. It is users (albeit an exceedingly tiny fraction of them, apparently) who may wish to exert a 'right to withdraw' content posted on Tribe. It is therefore incumbent on the users to point out the basis such a right."
True it is the burden of the Plaintiff to so disaffirm a contract or a clause in a contract. However, if I recall correctly the same burden thin shifts to the defendant.
"Were push to come to shove, I believe a court would put the burden on a user to point to the basis for the user's 'right to withdraw content,' and that a court would not inclined to recognize any of what's been presented in the various TribeIdeas threads on this topic as a legal basis for such a right."
Besides an ambigious, vague and overly broad and therefore burdensome "contract" (assume there is a contract to begin with) directed at Tribe's users, that is in some instances flies in the face of specific statutes??
"The justification of "because I want that right" is on the same level as "Waaah!" as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure a court would disagree."
Who Waaah's loudest wins? hehe
lol
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Re: deleting own posts question
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 11:31 AMI think we may be approaching the edge of pointlessness, and I can't tell whether I'm explaining things very poorly or you're intentionally pretending not to understand.
If A asks a court to make B do X, the court will do nothing unless A convinces the court that B has a legal obligation to do X (i.e., something the court can enforce). If A merely asserts that A and B had a contract that didn't address X or that is invalid for some reason, that creates no legal obligation for B to do X.
Here, A=user
B=Tribe
X=permit user to delete user's previously posted content.
Obviously, this is grossly simplified. Outside this context, though, we're simply not talking about reality.
As simply as I can put it, Tribe appears to have no obligation to permit users to remove their previously posted content, and this is true under the new TOU, whether it is an enforceable contract or not. If you can identify some credible basis for a 'right to withdraw content,' I'm all ears. Otherwise, I think I've reached the point at which further keystrokes are wasted.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 1:03 PMThat is the inherent problem with Tribe's TOU/TOS, it is not clear.
This is not to mention its' problems the legality of acceptance, and enforceability. I have posted about a case here in Cal, that clearly indicates the "agreement by use" gig is not enforceable.
The TOU/TOS is contradictory.
The actions of Tribe's are contradictory to the TOU/TOS.
The "I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, therefore there is no evil", does not work, especially in court. This is what Tribe is doing.
..and Tribe can make it so that a user can delete or otherwise remove their own content. If it be pictures in the album, user profile, or items posted in threads. Tribe, merely choses not to for their own gain.
And most of the users on Tribe, are unaware of the very of say Copyright Law. Yet see (as it has been in fact mentioned), "why cant we delete other content", if we can delete other content "as allowed".
Tribe merely does not want that content removed.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 1:07 PMGary,
See more here:
tribeideas.tribe.net/thread/...a3631806
"It's been suggested many times in the past that users be allowed to edit or delete their own posts. Whenever a Tribe employee has commented on the suggestion it has been to say "we aren't going to change that"."
....
Rapture
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Re: deleting own posts question
Mon, December 26, 2005 - 3:45 PMVive, if you can't get satisfaction any other way, one thing you might explore is DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act). From Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA
Among other things, it requires companies that host online content to block access to it if they are asked to do so by the copyright holder.
Hopefully, Tribe will be willing to work with you without that, but it is available if you need it. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 2:30 PMThanks for the suggestion Paul and for the legal bantering Rapture and Gary. It was informative.
NOW, I am still back at the same position of asking tribe for a way to delete my poems. GARY, WADE, WARREN...how can I do this? -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 2:38 PMThey answered:
YOU DON'T!
Thanks for playing....
--S
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Re: deleting own posts question
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 8:40 AMWarren has informed you that they won't be removing your work, and suggested that in the future if you don't want something grabbed by their license then you shouldn't post it.
It's that helpful customer service that makes all the difference these days, don't you think? -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 9:10 AM"Warren has informed you that they won't be removing your work, and suggested that in the future if you don't want something grabbed by their license then you shouldn't post it. "
Gary, et al.
The bottom line, is that the TOU/TOS is overly broad, lacks definations as to terms used, what is removable and what is not, what is under the prepetrual license and what is not, misleading, vague, and unintelligible.
In short, people have to guess what is and what is not under the TOU/TOS.
The proof? Look at all the questions about the TOU/TOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Could the TOU/TOS not be misleading, vague, and unintelligible. The TOU/TOS could specifically spell out what is not to be removed, and not be removed. The TOU/TOS etc-yet it doesn't, etc.
If Tribe is so financially strapped I'm sure they will like to pay their attorney to defend the undefensivible. Within their own theory of "we dont have the money" why not have the TOU/TOS spell things out?
Yet get this, if they do spell things out most of the artists I suspect will up and leave Tribe because the artists do not want Tribe to have control of their content. Thus, Tribe has to hide behind this misleading, vague, and unintelligible TOS/TOU to have their cake and eat it too.
I am really tired of pointing things out. Talk is CHEAP. Tribe can either get their act together or they can get a nice pieces of paper. It really is that simple.
Civil Liability un Business and Professions Code Section 17200 is a misdeamnor. I am sure I can draft up at least 6 counts of violation thereunder to make it felony for them.
F E L O N Y......
Further under the Civ Procedure the Attorney General for the State of California and the DA must be served a copy of 17200 suits. Guess what that means???? Tribe's contradictory bullshit comes to a head.
Welcome to California law.....
I will stay quiet for a 2 days to see if Tribe shows any inkling or sign of getting their little world together.
Nuff Said, time to DO.
Rapture
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Re: deleting own posts question
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 3:29 PMGary and Rapture, you seem to have the creds to answer this question, since this is what it is boiling down to for the poets and until this question is answered the poetry sites will continue to be dead silent and there will be others, like me, who will be removing everything.......another person asked this question...
"So, Paul, do I understand this correctly? It seems that the TOU states that if, say, tribe.net wanted to publish a "best of tribe" book, they could, using any of our stuff, without notification or payment. Furthermore, if I meanwhile wanted to publish a collection of my writings, I could not publish anything that was concurrently posted on tribe? " -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 4:04 PMVive, you could easily publish a book of your own writings even if you'd published them previously on Tribe. What you couldn't do is publish somewhere else and grant that other party exclusive license. That only makes sense-- if you've already published something in location A, you can't publish it in B and tell B that it won't ever be published elsewhere, since it already has.
I have some short stories published in books. The contract I signed gives them non-exclusive license to use the work-- I retain copyright, and I'm free to publish the story elsewhere, if I so desire.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 8:46 AM>>That only makes sense-- if you've already published something in location A, you can't publish it in B and tell B that it won't ever be published elsewhere, since it already has.<<
That's actually not true, Patti. It depends on the nature of the publishing. An exclusive license is usually written to grant exclusive rights to the work from that point forward. So for example if a poem had been published in a magazine, an exclusive license could be granted to another publisher stating that it wouldn't be published AGAIN by anyone else.
One of my partners wrote a book that sold quite well for a certain publisher. Eventually though my partner found it expedient to revoke that publisher's rights to her book and give an exclusive license to a different publisher.
This sort of thing is really pretty common in publishing. What makes Tribe's "perpetual, irrevocable" license is that it IS perpetual and irrevocable, meaning that the things an author can customarily do with his or her own work can't be done if he or she has ever hit the "Submit" button to put it on Tribe.
It seriously affects the value of work published on Tribe, and it's simply not necessary to do it that way.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 5:09 PM>>Vive>>"So, Paul, do I understand this correctly? It seems that the TOU states that if, say, tribe.net wanted to publish a "best of tribe" book, they could, using any of our stuff, without notification or payment. Furthermore, if I meanwhile wanted to publish a collection of my writings, I could not publish anything that was concurrently posted on tribe? "<<Vive<<
I doubt that Tribe's license would be construed by a court to include 'transformative' uses of material posted here. When you posted stuff on Tribe, you gave Tribe a license (whether explicit or implied) to display what you posted. Absent some agreement to the contrary, there's probably no limit on how long Tribe can store, display, and copy (in the sense of displaying a new copy everytime someone visits) what you posted. Again, absent some agreement to the contrary, there's little basis for Tribe to argue that you granted them a license to do *anything at all* with the posted material (e.g., post it on billboards, run television ads quoting the material, publishing books).
My personal opinion is that a court would not likely find publishing a 'Best of Tribe'-type book to be within the scope of the license you gave to Tribe, because publishing such a book to be an ordinary part of running a site like this. My opinion would differ if such books were common or if the TOU in effect at the time you posted the material explicitly included such books.
Of course, for an opinion that you could reasonably rely in a legal sense, I'd have to charge you my regular rates. :)
As for publishing your own poems, unless you've given someone exclusive rights to your poems, you retain the right to publish them. If a publisher wants your exclusive rights in exchange for publishing (not an uncommon demand), you can't give them to the publisher (since you don't own all of your rights anymore, having given Tribe a non-exclusive license to certain rights).
Hope that clears things up.
Gary the-not-Tribe-employee
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Re: deleting own posts question
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 10:10 AM>>"So, Paul, do I understand this correctly? It seems that the TOU states that if, say, tribe.net wanted to publish a "best of tribe" book, they could, using any of our stuff, without notification or payment. <<
That is exactly correct.
>>Furthermore, if I meanwhile wanted to publish a collection of my writings, I could not publish anything that was concurrently posted on tribe? "<<
That's not correct. You could publish anything you wanted, as long as the publisher didn't insist on an exclusive license. Unfortunately many of them do.
You do have one final option here. Tribe has given you the power to delete any thread that you start. So if you published your poems as original threads, rather than as replies to someone else's threads, you can go in and nuke the entire thread - along with the comments of anyone else that has posted to it.
Obviously, this is the least selective option. However if Tribe isn't willing to give you a more selective tool then it's safe to say that they aren't all that concerned about the rights of users whose work would be deleted that way. You make do with what you have in that case. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 8:23 PMThanks very much for the legal opinions and information. I really appreciate that.......I am going through and nuking the threads that I can, unfortunately, I did post in response to others threads at times and can not nuke those and in a few instances the mods have unsubscribed so I can not ask them to go in and delete the posts. DAMN! One of my favorite poems is stuck in that limbo and unless tribe deems to be kind enough to help me I am stuck. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 8:29 PMThere is an option now I think for a moderatorless tribe to elect a new moderator...
Not sure how it works yet though, but that's what th3 release notes said for the last rollout.
Good as any other time to give it a shot and see how it works.
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Re: deleting own posts question
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 10:38 AMShame that Tribe makes it necessary to remove all the content in a thread just to rescue one's own work. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 12:27 PMYes Shatter, I have been in pm contact with Wade and am about to find out how the whole thing works. They'll make me moderator of the tribe so I can go in and rescue my poem....
and Yes Paul, It is a real shame that I and others have to go to these lengths now, but Trbes TOU will make it damn near impossible for me to publish since I will not be able to grant exclusive rights due to Tribe having claimed rights. The biggest shame for me personally is that I have used tribe as a muse of sorts and have been able to write a lot of poetry and share it with the folks that have inspired it. Now I will be unable to do so.....unless tribe is interesed in and can figure out a way to change that non-exclusive liscence part of their new TOU....
Oh, and it is not necessary to remove all the content in a thread, just cut copy and paste it into a new thread and label it modified and add a disclaimer that although your icon appears at the post, the work in it was written by____, etc etc...time consuming but the only respectful way I have found to reclaim my poems -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 7:49 AM>>Vive>>Trbes TOU will make it damn near impossible for me to publish since I will not be able to grant exclusive rights due to Tribe having claimed rights.<<Vive<<
Not that I'm defending Tribe or anything, but Tribe didn't do anything.
YOU published the poems in a public place. Regardless of Tribes TOU (and regardless of which service you publicly posted them on), you can't give anyone exclusive display rights. Not trying to make you feel bad or anything - just remember next time: before you throw something open to the world, make sure you intend to throw it open to the world.
Gary -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 7:52 AMBTW, nothing says that you can't publish the poems elsewhere - just make sure you don't tell the publisher that they've never been published or displayed anywhere, because they have. The publisher can make their decision whether or not to publish based on that.
I can't claim to have my finger on the pulse of the poetry community or anything, but I don't imagine a publisher of poetry being terribly upset that a poem was previously displayed in some electronic forum with a limited membership. Go for it! -
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Unsu...
Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 2:12 PMYes, Gary-not the one that works for tribe-what you say is exactly true. And I think you perspective on poems having once been displayed on an eloctronic mediaum is accurate. I also think at this point I need to gather all those word puppies in and stop posting new poems here...which for me is a HUGE drag. (especially the not posting further poems) I have been guilty of pie in the sky naivte(sp?) and this will all serve as an abject lesson. A rather funny twist in all this is, before I started posting and writing poems on tribe, I had no idea my poetry would have such a large appeal. The feedback I have gotten has been amazing and has led me to begin compiling toward publishing. So while on one hand, I should have known better, on the other if I had, I would not have gotten such great feedback.....nor would I likely have written so much since so many folks on tribe served as my muse......so, all in all, I have nothing to complain too loudly about...and Wendy et al have been very helpful to retrieve poems in odd places for me.
IThat all being said, I would still like a delete option...... -
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Unsu...
Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 2:57 PMI think another reason for the wording goes along with Gary's example even further.
You get published ina magazine. The magazine claims they have exclusive print right somewher ein teh fine print that you may not have been aware or over looked. Now said magazine a few months later comes across the work on tribe. They then slap tribe with a cease and dissist and possible damages, even though you posted the work here first, and it's your work.
In truth I believe this is why they have the wording as such. I don't see them trying to make a power play grab to steal peoples work, rather it's so that somebody later can't make some claim against things posted here and sue them for what was rightfully posted here in the first place.
--S
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Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:50 PMIt's a matter of law, Gary. If the publisher wants an exclusive license (and most do) then the fact that Tribe's TOU explicitly forbids that means that they can't legally have one. Under those circumstance, no publisher who wants an exclusive license will touch the work. -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:28 PM>>Paul>>If the publisher wants an exclusive license...<<Paul<<
Well... yeah, that's the crux of it. IF they INSIST only on either i) an exclusive license or ii) nothing at all.
I'm no magazine exec, but I could see publishing something based on a representation that a work had only been presented on forum XYZ, and a promise that it won't be published elsewhere.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but poetry publishing doesn't seem so terribly cutthroat to me. I doubt many folks forego buying poetry books & mags in favor of the drivel we fill up the tribes with. :)
(Note: I'm NOT talking about Vive's work, which I haven't seen) -
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Re: deleting own posts question
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 2:06 AM>>Well... yeah, that's the crux of it. IF they INSIST only on either i) an exclusive license or ii) nothing at all. <<
Exactly. Which means that most publishers won't take it, and the ones that are left will pay less for it. Which means that Tribe's "free service" may end up costing people a pretty penny.
>>I'm no magazine exec, but I could see publishing something based on a representation that a work had only been presented on forum XYZ, and a promise that it won't be published elsewhere. <<
A publisher who has a policy of exclusive licenses will not buy work that's covered by Tribe's license, period. This is black and white area of law - it's either exclusive or it's not, and if it's not then many publishers just won'
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